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	<title>Comments on: Stained Glass Tracing with Vinegar</title>
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	<description>Discover a new world of glass painting techniques, designs, case studies and videos</description>
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		<title>By: Stephen Byrne</title>
		<link>http://www.realglasspainting.com/stained-glass-painting-techniques/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/comment-page-1/#comment-225</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Byrne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 12:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.glassanddesign.com/?p=1655#comment-225</guid>
		<description>We&#039;ve just received this comment from Bill Disbro, Jamestown, New York:



&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;I took a workshop in 2008 from Debora Coombs at the American Glass Guild conference at which I learned to add Propylene Glycol instead of water to Reusche Best Black.  Once the mixture has set for at least  2 weeks, perhaps a little water is added to get the consistency desired, lines can be drawn with ink pens, including Hunt&#039;s Crow Quill pens that give a line as fine and lively as can be done in ink.  The trace also has the long pull rather than the short stroke one may think.  It&#039;s truly a marvelous material to work with and cross-hatch drawing can done that is as complicated as in ink.  (The longer the trace and propylene glycol mix before using the better.  Mix a batch, put it on the shelf and forget about it for several months!)&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;



We&#039;ve just prepared a batch ourselves and can&#039;t wait to start our tests in a fortnight or so.

We&#039;ll document and publish our results of course.

To finish, here&#039;s another excellent idea from Bill:


&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Using this mixture of glycol/best black (or any color I suppose) put on rubber gloves and finger paint with it on glass.  One can get fantastic textures easily and rubber tipped tools can be used to erase areas/lines not wanted.  One of the best things I found is: take only the point of rubber gloved finger and touch a dab of trace then repeat touching area of glass - a fantastic mechanical pattern is created quickly - background areas, etc.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;





All our thanks to Debora and Bill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;ve just received this comment from Bill Disbro, Jamestown, New York:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;I took a workshop in 2008 from Debora Coombs at the American Glass Guild conference at which I learned to add Propylene Glycol instead of water to Reusche Best Black.  Once the mixture has set for at least  2 weeks, perhaps a little water is added to get the consistency desired, lines can be drawn with ink pens, including Hunt&#8217;s Crow Quill pens that give a line as fine and lively as can be done in ink.  The trace also has the long pull rather than the short stroke one may think.  It&#8217;s truly a marvelous material to work with and cross-hatch drawing can done that is as complicated as in ink.  (The longer the trace and propylene glycol mix before using the better.  Mix a batch, put it on the shelf and forget about it for several months!)&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>We&#8217;ve just prepared a batch ourselves and can&#8217;t wait to start our tests in a fortnight or so.</p>
<p>We&#8217;ll document and publish our results of course.</p>
<p>To finish, here&#8217;s another excellent idea from Bill:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Using this mixture of glycol/best black (or any color I suppose) put on rubber gloves and finger paint with it on glass.  One can get fantastic textures easily and rubber tipped tools can be used to erase areas/lines not wanted.  One of the best things I found is: take only the point of rubber gloved finger and touch a dab of trace then repeat touching area of glass &#8211; a fantastic mechanical pattern is created quickly &#8211; background areas, etc.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>All our thanks to Debora and Bill.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Byrne</title>
		<link>http://www.realglasspainting.com/stained-glass-painting-techniques/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/comment-page-1/#comment-194</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Byrne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.glassanddesign.com/?p=1655#comment-194</guid>
		<description>Hello &lt;em&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Laura&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;,

Thanks so much for your &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.glassanddesign.com/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/#comment-573&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;comment&lt;/a&gt;. There&#039;s so much there for everyone. You&#039;re a star to share like that.

Yes, documenting each technique is so important. The techniques then become part of our repertoire that we can select as needed for particular projects. This is so much better than just knowing one technique and then imposing it on each bit of painting that we do!

I completely agree with you about the benefit of using oil and stain. It seems sheer madness always and only to use water or vinegar. I&#039;ll write &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.glassanddesign.com/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/#comment-578&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;some more&lt;/a&gt; on this shortly.

Thanks again, Laura, for your contribution here and elsewhere.

All the best,
Stephen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello <em><strong>Laura</strong></em>,</p>
<p>Thanks so much for your <a href="http://www.glassanddesign.com/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/#comment-573" rel="nofollow">comment</a>. There&#8217;s so much there for everyone. You&#8217;re a star to share like that.</p>
<p>Yes, documenting each technique is so important. The techniques then become part of our repertoire that we can select as needed for particular projects. This is so much better than just knowing one technique and then imposing it on each bit of painting that we do!</p>
<p>I completely agree with you about the benefit of using oil and stain. It seems sheer madness always and only to use water or vinegar. I&#8217;ll write <a href="http://www.glassanddesign.com/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/#comment-578" rel="nofollow">some more</a> on this shortly.</p>
<p>Thanks again, Laura, for your contribution here and elsewhere.</p>
<p>All the best,<br />
Stephen</p>
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		<title>By: Laura Goff Parham</title>
		<link>http://www.realglasspainting.com/stained-glass-painting-techniques/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/comment-page-1/#comment-193</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura Goff Parham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 15:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.glassanddesign.com/?p=1655#comment-193</guid>
		<description>I like using vinegar. It gives a &#039;crisper&#039; line. It dries much harder. You can matt over with water. If you have enough gum in the water mix, you can then put a third layer on top using denatured alcohol. This technique works well - &lt;em&gt;if&lt;/em&gt; you work fast enough. If you do not work quickly or if you over-work you piece, you can mess it up. It can be done, but it is not an easy technique to learn.

I also like to matt with vinegar. I had one particular application where I was painting a water fall. I needed mist rising up at the bottom of the water fall. I put down a vinegar matt and let it dry. Then I spritzed the piece with window cleaner.  The droplets of cleaner dissolved the matt. After it dried,  I used my badger to brush off the paint. The result was hundreds of droplets of clear unpainted glass - perfect for rising mist!

It is important to learn ALL the various techniques. I keep a scientific log to record my results. The techniques that I use on one job may not be the right technique for the next job. With my log, I have a vast assortment of techniques that I can choose from.

By the way, Kenneth Leap&#039;s work is incredible.

For &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.glassanddesign.com/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/#comment-569&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jeff Hitch&lt;/a&gt;, try mixing your silver stain with oil. The slower drying time allows you to badger a nice matt. The biggest problem with silver stain is making sure you are painting on the correct side of the glass. Do a test with using one piece of glass. Cut it in half. Apply silver stain to the front of one piece and to the back of the other. Fire it. You will see what I mean by the right side of the glass.

Laura Goff Parham
SOTAGLASS.COM</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like using vinegar. It gives a &#8216;crisper&#8217; line. It dries much harder. You can matt over with water. If you have enough gum in the water mix, you can then put a third layer on top using denatured alcohol. This technique works well &#8211; <em>if</em> you work fast enough. If you do not work quickly or if you over-work you piece, you can mess it up. It can be done, but it is not an easy technique to learn.</p>
<p>I also like to matt with vinegar. I had one particular application where I was painting a water fall. I needed mist rising up at the bottom of the water fall. I put down a vinegar matt and let it dry. Then I spritzed the piece with window cleaner.  The droplets of cleaner dissolved the matt. After it dried,  I used my badger to brush off the paint. The result was hundreds of droplets of clear unpainted glass &#8211; perfect for rising mist!</p>
<p>It is important to learn ALL the various techniques. I keep a scientific log to record my results. The techniques that I use on one job may not be the right technique for the next job. With my log, I have a vast assortment of techniques that I can choose from.</p>
<p>By the way, Kenneth Leap&#8217;s work is incredible.</p>
<p>For <a href="http://www.glassanddesign.com/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/#comment-569" rel="nofollow">Jeff Hitch</a>, try mixing your silver stain with oil. The slower drying time allows you to badger a nice matt. The biggest problem with silver stain is making sure you are painting on the correct side of the glass. Do a test with using one piece of glass. Cut it in half. Apply silver stain to the front of one piece and to the back of the other. Fire it. You will see what I mean by the right side of the glass.</p>
<p>Laura Goff Parham<br />
SOTAGLASS.COM</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Byrne</title>
		<link>http://www.realglasspainting.com/stained-glass-painting-techniques/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/comment-page-1/#comment-191</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Byrne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:01:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.glassanddesign.com/?p=1655#comment-191</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your question, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jkennethleap.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kenneth&lt;/a&gt;!

Like you, I&#039;m sure the &quot;vinegar&quot; technique did not &lt;em&gt;begin &lt;/em&gt;with Albinus Elksus. But, as for &lt;em&gt;when&lt;/em&gt; it began, we&#039;ll now ask around, and we&#039;ll be sure to post an answer when we get one.

As you say, the Lowlands glass painters of the 15th century are simply astonishing: the fineness and delicacy of their brush-strokes would be a miracle were it not for the fact that there must be some repeatable method if we but knew it.

We were once called to copy some particularly intricate piece of tracing from the 19th century.

The traced lines were incredibly fine. But, whilst they were as fine as possible, there was also a gentle matt on either side of them - where glass paint had been pushed up against them as highlights were created using a bare, clean, dry hand. And this had the effect of gently &lt;em&gt;softening the traced lines&lt;/em&gt;, whilst still preserving their distinctness.

So first we painted a light, water-based undercoat and let this dry.

And then we prepared some glass paint using oil of tar mixed with Straw Hat varnish.

The oil of tar allowed us to produce the fine strokes we were after, whilst the varnish allowed the strokes to dry and adhere to the surface of the glass.

The net effect was then that we could bruise and highlight the water-based undercoat, and thus soften the fine &lt;em&gt;oil-based&lt;/em&gt; trace lines without destroying them.

This worked really well, but who knows for sure how the originals were done? (Of course, with varnish in it, the paint on our palette couldn&#039;t be used again once &lt;em&gt;it&lt;/em&gt; had dried.)

&lt;blockquote&gt;General note to &lt;em&gt;everyone&lt;/em&gt;: oil of tar is a highly toxic medium. So don&#039;t use it unless you understand the &lt;em&gt;serious&lt;/em&gt; risks involved.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

All the best,
Stephen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your question, <a href="http://www.jkennethleap.com/" rel="nofollow">Kenneth</a>!</p>
<p>Like you, I&#8217;m sure the &#8220;vinegar&#8221; technique did not <em>begin </em>with Albinus Elksus. But, as for <em>when</em> it began, we&#8217;ll now ask around, and we&#8217;ll be sure to post an answer when we get one.</p>
<p>As you say, the Lowlands glass painters of the 15th century are simply astonishing: the fineness and delicacy of their brush-strokes would be a miracle were it not for the fact that there must be some repeatable method if we but knew it.</p>
<p>We were once called to copy some particularly intricate piece of tracing from the 19th century.</p>
<p>The traced lines were incredibly fine. But, whilst they were as fine as possible, there was also a gentle matt on either side of them &#8211; where glass paint had been pushed up against them as highlights were created using a bare, clean, dry hand. And this had the effect of gently <em>softening the traced lines</em>, whilst still preserving their distinctness.</p>
<p>So first we painted a light, water-based undercoat and let this dry.</p>
<p>And then we prepared some glass paint using oil of tar mixed with Straw Hat varnish.</p>
<p>The oil of tar allowed us to produce the fine strokes we were after, whilst the varnish allowed the strokes to dry and adhere to the surface of the glass.</p>
<p>The net effect was then that we could bruise and highlight the water-based undercoat, and thus soften the fine <em>oil-based</em> trace lines without destroying them.</p>
<p>This worked really well, but who knows for sure how the originals were done? (Of course, with varnish in it, the paint on our palette couldn&#8217;t be used again once <em>it</em> had dried.)</p>
<blockquote><p>General note to <em>everyone</em>: oil of tar is a highly toxic medium. So don&#8217;t use it unless you understand the <em>serious</em> risks involved.</p></blockquote>
<p>All the best,<br />
Stephen</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth Leap</title>
		<link>http://www.realglasspainting.com/stained-glass-painting-techniques/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/comment-page-1/#comment-190</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth Leap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.glassanddesign.com/?p=1655#comment-190</guid>
		<description>I, too, began painting with vinegar from exposure to Albinus&#039; book, but I later abandonded vinegar trace in favor of &lt;em&gt;oil trace&lt;/em&gt;. Oil does dry slower and it can also be matted over with water. However you cannot recreate the lovely blurred line effect which you demonstrate so masterfully in your book - a wonderful technique!

My question, related to vinegar, references ancient techniques. Theophilus documents mixing paint with wine (or urine) in his 12th C. treatise.

Both of these mediums are acidic &amp; sticky - which probably made them a logical choice.

Would old wine, which was turning to vinegar, then be a possible origin of the vinegar technique? Have you come across any documentation for when vinegar was first used - surely it didn&#039;t begin with Albinus?

Other books which I&#039;ve read from the 1800&#039;s mention using thickened turpentine as a tracing medium. Personally I&#039;ve been curious what mediums the medallion painters of the Lowlands were using in the 15th C. The lines they were able to achieve are so fine! Not something you could achieve with vinegar for sure. Personally, I had inconsistent results when I tried to matt over vinegar trace which I now attribute to not getting the right amount of gum arabic in the mix.

Cheers!
Kenneth</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I, too, began painting with vinegar from exposure to Albinus&#8217; book, but I later abandonded vinegar trace in favor of <em>oil trace</em>. Oil does dry slower and it can also be matted over with water. However you cannot recreate the lovely blurred line effect which you demonstrate so masterfully in your book &#8211; a wonderful technique!</p>
<p>My question, related to vinegar, references ancient techniques. Theophilus documents mixing paint with wine (or urine) in his 12th C. treatise.</p>
<p>Both of these mediums are acidic &amp; sticky &#8211; which probably made them a logical choice.</p>
<p>Would old wine, which was turning to vinegar, then be a possible origin of the vinegar technique? Have you come across any documentation for when vinegar was first used &#8211; surely it didn&#8217;t begin with Albinus?</p>
<p>Other books which I&#8217;ve read from the 1800&#8242;s mention using thickened turpentine as a tracing medium. Personally I&#8217;ve been curious what mediums the medallion painters of the Lowlands were using in the 15th C. The lines they were able to achieve are so fine! Not something you could achieve with vinegar for sure. Personally, I had inconsistent results when I tried to matt over vinegar trace which I now attribute to not getting the right amount of gum arabic in the mix.</p>
<p>Cheers!<br />
Kenneth</p>
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		<title>By: Angela Sabo</title>
		<link>http://www.realglasspainting.com/stained-glass-painting-techniques/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/comment-page-1/#comment-189</link>
		<dc:creator>Angela Sabo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2009 17:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.glassanddesign.com/?p=1655#comment-189</guid>
		<description>I like reading your information on glass painting. I&#039;ve been painting on glass for two years now, and I find it very interesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like reading your information on glass painting. I&#8217;ve been painting on glass for two years now, and I find it very interesting.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Byrne</title>
		<link>http://www.realglasspainting.com/stained-glass-painting-techniques/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/comment-page-1/#comment-188</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Byrne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 12:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.glassanddesign.com/?p=1655#comment-188</guid>
		<description>Hello, Shane,

Thanks for your comment.

David and I will gladly say more about our ongoing stained glass adventures with financiers, novelists, psychiatrists, headmasters, bishops, literary agents and C.E.Os.

And we&#039;ll always make sure that these stories are interesting to &lt;em&gt;people like you&lt;/em&gt; who make and paint your own stained glass.

Right now, we&#039;re very much focussed on using &lt;em&gt;this particular space&lt;/em&gt; as a way of answering your questions and sharing the observations and techniques as &lt;em&gt;widely as possible&lt;/em&gt;.

So we&#039;ll strike a balance between long-running case-studies and hard-hitting stained glass painting techniques.

All the best,
Stephen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello, Shane,</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment.</p>
<p>David and I will gladly say more about our ongoing stained glass adventures with financiers, novelists, psychiatrists, headmasters, bishops, literary agents and C.E.Os.</p>
<p>And we&#8217;ll always make sure that these stories are interesting to <em>people like you</em> who make and paint your own stained glass.</p>
<p>Right now, we&#8217;re very much focussed on using <em>this particular space</em> as a way of answering your questions and sharing the observations and techniques as <em>widely as possible</em>.</p>
<p>So we&#8217;ll strike a balance between long-running case-studies and hard-hitting stained glass painting techniques.</p>
<p>All the best,<br />
Stephen</p>
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		<title>By: Shane Gallagher</title>
		<link>http://www.realglasspainting.com/stained-glass-painting-techniques/2009/09/07/vinegar-stained-glass-tracing/comment-page-1/#comment-187</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Gallagher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 09:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.glassanddesign.com/?p=1655#comment-187</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Stephen, for that informative post. I&#039;m sure I&#039;m not the only one who&#039;s been missing your regular posts. Is there any possibility of a feature on some of the fascinating projects you&#039;ve been working on?

Cheers,
Shane</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Stephen, for that informative post. I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;m not the only one who&#8217;s been missing your regular posts. Is there any possibility of a feature on some of the fascinating projects you&#8217;ve been working on?</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Shane</p>
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